Discussion:
Mailing List Abuse
(too old to reply)
John Wenger
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Ron,

Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.

The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
nature.

Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
necessary. Now you know.

Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
context.

Thanks for your cooperation.

John

Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
>
> Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live up
> in Oceanside.
Richard W. Ernst
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.

While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
from the "main" list.

Hopefully the group will correct me if this is a misinterpretation.

I will agree about trimming emails to relevant stuff.

Rich

John Wenger wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.
>
> The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
> at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
> help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
> contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
> nature.
>
> Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
> abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
> first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
> necessary. Now you know.
>
> Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
> context.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
> John
>
> Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
> >
> > Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live up
> > in Oceanside.
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.

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Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
"Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
>
> I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
>
> While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> from the "main" list.
>
> Hopefully the group will correct me if this is a misinterpretation.
>
> I will agree about trimming emails to relevant stuff.
>

Diesn't this discussion belong on Steer?

[god i can be such a punk! ;-) ]

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

When prosperity comes, do not use all of it.
- Confucius
John Wenger
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
"Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
>
> I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
>
> While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> from the "main" list.

> Rich

Why was the newbie list named "Newbie" if not to expressly address
newbie topics? IIRC, and I believe I do, the newbie list was created
precisely to divert the newbie traffic away from the main list. The
archives contain the history if your memory is different than mine.

John
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
John Wenger wrote:
>
> "Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
> >
> > I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
> >
> > While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> > newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> > violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> > from the "main" list.
>
> > Rich
>
> Why was the newbie list named "Newbie" if not to expressly address
> newbie topics? IIRC, and I believe I do, the newbie list was created
> precisely to divert the newbie traffic away from the main list. The
> archives contain the history if your memory is different than mine.

My memory is that Newbie was created more to lighten the load,
both in volume and technical level, on newcomers.

I do agree with John that an avalanche of newbie questions
probably belongs on Newbie, and think it was not out of line to
request that. But everybody needs a chance to learn list culture,
and we'll never sort all the messages to everyone's satisfaction
(I for example was, and may still be, outraged that a perfectly
good technical discussion on round cables started out on the
Kooler. I mean, for god's sake, people, if you're not going to
natter, stay off Kooler!)

But I digress. Perhaps I should go outside and run through the
sprinkler.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't
care who gets the credit
-Harry Truman
Mike Easter
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
"Lan Barnes"

> But everybody needs a chance to learn list culture,


Ta da! And here it is. This *is* list culture.

The good, the [not so] bad, and the... well, nothing really ugly has
shown up,


yet...


--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2005-01-19 18:14:59 UTC
Permalink
"Lan Barnes"

> But everybody needs a chance to learn list culture,


Ta da! And here it is. This *is* list culture.

The good, the [not so] bad, and the... well, nothing really ugly has
shown up,


yet...


--
Mike Easter
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:14:58 UTC
Permalink
John Wenger wrote:
>
> "Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
> >
> > I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
> >
> > While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> > newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> > violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> > from the "main" list.
>
> > Rich
>
> Why was the newbie list named "Newbie" if not to expressly address
> newbie topics? IIRC, and I believe I do, the newbie list was created
> precisely to divert the newbie traffic away from the main list. The
> archives contain the history if your memory is different than mine.

My memory is that Newbie was created more to lighten the load,
both in volume and technical level, on newcomers.

I do agree with John that an avalanche of newbie questions
probably belongs on Newbie, and think it was not out of line to
request that. But everybody needs a chance to learn list culture,
and we'll never sort all the messages to everyone's satisfaction
(I for example was, and may still be, outraged that a perfectly
good technical discussion on round cables started out on the
Kooler. I mean, for god's sake, people, if you're not going to
natter, stay off Kooler!)

But I digress. Perhaps I should go outside and run through the
sprinkler.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't
care who gets the credit
-Harry Truman
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:14:58 UTC
Permalink
"Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
>
> I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
>
> While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> from the "main" list.
>
> Hopefully the group will correct me if this is a misinterpretation.
>
> I will agree about trimming emails to relevant stuff.
>

Diesn't this discussion belong on Steer?

[god i can be such a punk! ;-) ]

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

When prosperity comes, do not use all of it.
- Confucius
John Wenger
2005-01-19 18:14:58 UTC
Permalink
"Richard W. Ernst" wrote:
>
> I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.
>
> While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
> newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
> violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
> from the "main" list.

> Rich

Why was the newbie list named "Newbie" if not to expressly address
newbie topics? IIRC, and I believe I do, the newbie list was created
precisely to divert the newbie traffic away from the main list. The
archives contain the history if your memory is different than mine.

John
Anthony M. Abate
2005-01-19 16:51:35 UTC
Permalink
John,
While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
completely wrong. This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
list was receiving by neophytes. I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
"understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here. Many people don't
know all the resources available on the net or how to find them. Wouldn't it
have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.

Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure the
public falls out of the M$ trance.

I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all the
time. I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left because
of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some list members.
This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would be
right.

On Saturday 23 June 2001 02:06 pm, you wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.
>
> The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
> at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
> help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
> contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
> nature.
>
> Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
> abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
> first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
> necessary. Now you know.
>
> Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
> context.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
> John
>
> Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
> > Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live
> > up in Oceanside.
John Wenger
2005-01-19 16:51:36 UTC
Permalink
"Anthony M. Abate" wrote:
>
> John,
> While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
> completely wrong.

You are probably right. I was feeling frustrated when I wrote that
msg, and felt that something drastic needed to be done.

> This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
> discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
> list was receiving by neophytes.

I agree with you. Thirtynine msgs in a single thread suggests that
that thread be taken immediately to the newbie list.

> I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
> "understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here.

And it still has not been said. However, I do believe that newbies
would serve themselves best by lurking on the main list for at least a
month before posting. That is considered to be good list ettiquette.
On the other hand, newbies should begin posting immediately to the
newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
endanger the main list.

> Many people don't
> know all the resources available on the net or how to find them.

But this one did know. He knew about the KPLUG website as evidenced
by the observation that he joined the list. Bob La Quey told him
about Google on Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:47:59 -0700.

> Wouldn't it
> have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
> investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.

I deny that my comment was rude. I prefer to think of it as direct
instructions. I look forward to helping him on the Newbie list.

> Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
> successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure the
> public falls out of the M$ trance.
>
> I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all the
> time.

I believe that you should promote the Newbie list instead of the main
list. Why are you not promoting the Newbie list which was created
precisely for the needs of newbies?

Technically strong users (e.g., Robert Cunningham) have quit this list
recently because the volume of postings was too high. This is a bad
thing. Please help solve this problem by asking all newbies to use
the newbie list instead of this list, and to use this list when the
newbie list fails them. Everyone should read both lists, and send
their questions to the appropriate list.

> I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
> times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left because
> of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some list members.

This provides additional support for the idea that they signed up for
the wrong list. This would not have happened to them on the newbie
list.

> This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would be
> right.

Even worse, in my opinion, would be to ruin the main list by
over-burdening it with Newbie questions. This would tend to drive out
strong users, and also to kill the Newbie list. One of the very best
things about Kplug is its willingness to create specialized lists to
provide support for any subgroup. John Terpstra, then a VP of Turbo
Linux, and a major developer and organizer of the Samba project, once
told me that the best lists are completely willing to spin off
subgroups at the drop of a hat.

Please join me in encouraging newbies to use the newbies list to
better support everyone's needs.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

John
Anthony M. Abate
2005-01-19 16:51:36 UTC
Permalink
John,
I probably should have been a little clearer, I do advocate the newbie list.
I also suggest lurking here to pick more detailed information, I must have
missed Bob's posting to him ....... my error.


On Sunday 24 June 2001 02:21 am, you wrote:
> "Anthony M. Abate" wrote:
> > John,
> > While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
> > completely wrong.
>
> You are probably right. I was feeling frustrated when I wrote that
> msg, and felt that something drastic needed to be done.
>
> > This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
> > discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
> > list was receiving by neophytes.
>
> I agree with you. Thirtynine msgs in a single thread suggests that
> that thread be taken immediately to the newbie list.
>
> > I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
> > "understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here.
>
> And it still has not been said. However, I do believe that newbies
> would serve themselves best by lurking on the main list for at least a
> month before posting. That is considered to be good list ettiquette.
> On the other hand, newbies should begin posting immediately to the
> newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> endanger the main list.
>
> > Many people don't
> > know all the resources available on the net or how to find them.
>
> But this one did know. He knew about the KPLUG website as evidenced
> by the observation that he joined the list. Bob La Quey told him
> about Google on Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:47:59 -0700.
>
> > Wouldn't it
> > have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
> > investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.
>
> I deny that my comment was rude. I prefer to think of it as direct
> instructions. I look forward to helping him on the Newbie list.
>
> > Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
> > successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure
> > the public falls out of the M$ trance.
> >
> > I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all
> > the time.
>
> I believe that you should promote the Newbie list instead of the main
> list. Why are you not promoting the Newbie list which was created
> precisely for the needs of newbies?
>
> Technically strong users (e.g., Robert Cunningham) have quit this list
> recently because the volume of postings was too high. This is a bad
> thing. Please help solve this problem by asking all newbies to use
> the newbie list instead of this list, and to use this list when the
> newbie list fails them. Everyone should read both lists, and send
> their questions to the appropriate list.
>
> > I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
> > times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left
> > because of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some
> > list members.
>
> This provides additional support for the idea that they signed up for
> the wrong list. This would not have happened to them on the newbie
> list.
>
> > This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would
> > be right.
>
> Even worse, in my opinion, would be to ruin the main list by
> over-burdening it with Newbie questions. This would tend to drive out
> strong users, and also to kill the Newbie list. One of the very best
> things about Kplug is its willingness to create specialized lists to
> provide support for any subgroup. John Terpstra, then a VP of Turbo
> Linux, and a major developer and organizer of the Samba project, once
> told me that the best lists are completely willing to spin off
> subgroups at the drop of a hat.
>
> Please join me in encouraging newbies to use the newbies list to
> better support everyone's needs.
>
> Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
>
> John
George Georgalis
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:

>newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
>from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
>endanger the main list.

I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
today!).

Sure it would be nice if every post was a better howoto, but that's not
the newbie's fault. I don't exactly know what all the questions have
been about but if somebody runs out of patience somebody else can help,
that's an advantage of using a list.

If you don't feel like helping a newbie, don't. Nobody in there right
mind answers all the questions, even if they could. When someone finds
the list is not informative enough for them they are free to pursue
other resources. But if people want to help, who has the right to stop
them?

// George



--
GEORGE GEORGALIS ><> http://www.galis.org/george
PO Box 3342 <>< <>< email: ***@galis.org
La Jolla, CA 92038 ><> ><> cell: 858-829-4004
John Wenger
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
George Georgalis wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:
>
> >newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> >from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> >endanger the main list.
>
> I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
> prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
> of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
> Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
> today!).

I came to my belief through analysis. Whatever the genesis of
motivation for creating the Newbie list, it seems clear to me now that
the Newbie list should also also handle all of the list traffic
generated by newbie questions. If this is not done, then what
prevents the main list from being overloaded with newbie traffic?
Nothing does, and the main list is overloaded. I propose to solve, at
least in part, the overloading of the main list by diverting the
newbie questions to the newbie list where they will receive special
handling.

If you dislike my proposal, then I ask you to provide your own
proposal. I assume that you do agree that the main list is somewhat
overloaded. And even if you do not agree that the list is yet
overloaded, do you believe that mainlist traffic will not increase
with the further growth of Linux?

As this growth continues, it will tend to drive the stronger users
away. As evidence, consider this recent posting from Robert
Cunningham:

--------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Too many messages! How about a KPLUG news server?
Date:
Sat, 26 May 2001 13:03:06 -0700
From:
"Robert W. Cunningham" <***@yahoo.com>
Reply-To:
kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
To:
kplug <kplug-***@kernel-panic.org>

I ignore my email for several days, and come back to find my mail box
filled with 250 messages, 220 of which were from this list!

This is a bit much: Like Freshmeat did long ago when their list
traffic
soared, I'd recommend moving or at least copying this list traffic to
a
news server, if possible.

I'll dip into Tracey's archives now and then to stay aware of KPLUG
happenings, and I'll visit the KPLUG site often, but this list no
longer
works for me, and I've decided to unsubscribe.

It's been fun!


-BobC

-------------------------------------------------
>
> Sure it would be nice if every post was a better howoto, but that's not
> the newbie's fault. I don't exactly know what all the questions have
> been about but if somebody runs out of patience somebody else can help,
> that's an advantage of using a list.

It is in a sense the newbie's fault for using the wrong list. The
Newbie list has a different "culture" by policy; this was done
deliberately to create a somewhat more nurturing environment for the
newbies.

I have taken special pains on the Newbie list to write explanations
designed (when I knew enough) to teach some context beyond the
shortest and most cryptic answers.

> If you don't feel like helping a newbie, don't. Nobody in there right
> mind answers all the questions, even if they could. When someone finds
> the list is not informative enough for them they are free to pursue
> other resources. But if people want to help, who has the right to stop
> them?

I do and have felt like helping the newbies. I just found 71 posts of
mine there. I consider these posts to be part of my credentials for
opining here.

John
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
At 02:55 PM 6/24/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:
> >
> > >newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> > >from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> > >endanger the main list.
> >
> > I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
> > prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
> > of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
> > Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
> > today!).
>
>I came to my belief through analysis. Whatever the genesis of
>motivation for creating the Newbie list, it seems clear to me now that
>the Newbie list should also also handle all of the list traffic
>generated by newbie questions. If this is not done, then what
>prevents the main list from being overloaded with newbie traffic?
>Nothing does, and the main list is overloaded. I propose to solve, at
>least in part, the overloading of the main list by diverting the
>newbie questions to the newbie list where they will receive special
>handling.
>
>If you dislike my proposal, then I ask you to provide your own
>proposal. I assume that you do agree that the main list is somewhat
>overloaded. And even if you do not agree that the list is yet
>overloaded, do you believe that mainlist traffic will not increase
>with the further growth of Linux?
>
>As this growth continues, it will tend to drive the stronger users
>away. As evidence, consider this recent posting from Robert
>Cunningham:
>
>--------------------------------------------------


Why not do this:
Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
spread the camaraderie
and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
that they may be
better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
no doubt much more
relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
handle your request,
oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
etc. etc..

What happened to that kind of support?

Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
long ago... come
on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
gone somewhere else.
The greatest thing about the Linux community to me is the same thing that
makes it great for
me to hang out at airports We all have the same interest. We're a
community and a family,
you can't say that about windows users.

Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?

If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And maybe he should.



-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Warn Kitchen wrote:

> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>

I recall that this was done with Ron.

> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.

I don't recall you cussing out the people who were offering help.

> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>

He was asking people to spell every word for him after he'd been shown the
dictionary. That gets old.

> -Warn
> ***@email.sjsu.edu
> One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
>

Exactly!

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
- Ken Olsen, DEC President, 1977
Darrel Lawrence
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>
> What happened to that kind of support?

That was exactly the kind of support that was provided. But he took all the
referrals and suggestions as personal insults, and attacked those giving
them. What is important to realize is that the list didn't suddenly change
and become more hostile to newbies. He came in aggressively, and showed
little interest in adapting himself to our customs. Rather, he felt that we
should help him, and he need show no respect to the list, or to us. He
doesn't care about "our" terminology, just tell him how to configure SAMBA.
He says Igor needs better interpersonal skills, when its obvious that its him
to needs to improve. He was rude and he brought this on himself. We've had
a lot of personal flame wars, but his is the first time I remember seeing,
"SHUT THE @#$ UP" on this list. Its people like him that drove me off of
EFNET, as its tiring to deal with. My point is that I have seen newbies make
the same mistakes as him, but when they are redressed for their mistakes,
they *follow the instructions*, humble themselves, and become regular list
members.


> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.
> The greatest thing about the Linux community to me is the same thing that
> makes it great for
> me to hang out at airports We all have the same interest. We're a
> community and a family,
> you can't say that about windows users.

Yes, we are a family. Being a newbie, he is like a child in that family,
which means he must learn from and respect his elders. Nobody was abusing
him.


> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>
> If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And maybe he should.

Sigh.
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
At 11:27 AM 6/25/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
> > Why not do this:
> > Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> > spread the camaraderie
> > and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> > that they may be
> > better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> > no doubt much more
> > relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> > handle your request,
> > oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> > etc. etc..
> >
>
>I recall that this was done with Ron.

Ron is not the only person I have seen things I did not like with
lately. And yes, Ron got hostile and defensive but considering
the response he's gotten I think my feelings would be a little hurt too. I
do not keep my Kplug mail normally so I don't have an
exact post and name, but there have been a couple times lately that a
person or persons on this list have been extremely inflexible.
Two times in particular a new person has asked a question and derailed a
thread and someone posts a very insulting message about
the way threaded email works and still never even bothered to acknowledge
the fact that they asked a question. Really... explain how
threaded email works and suggest they repost the message as a new
header. You don't help by insulting them, it only makes them
more set in their ways. And I wont even mention the flames the fly every
time someone tries to unsubscribe the wrong way. You wont
help them by making them feel stupid, you'll only keep them from speaking
up in the future, and you might even cause them to spread
that garbage elsewhere because they think that's the way people on mailing
lists are supposed to act. All of you had to learn how a
mailing list works at one time, some of you may have made a mistake or
two. I hope there were people around that explained to you
in a calm and rational way.

We are all at one point Linux children, we put our hands in the fire and
the thing that makes us a family is that our elders will comfort
us and bandage our burns.


> > Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> > long ago... come
> > on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> > gone somewhere else.
>
>I don't recall you cussing out the people who were offering help.

No you're right, I didn't. But then again... the people I asked for help
never told me to take it elsewhere either. This
*is* a linux HELP list is it not?

Of course it should be noted that when I joined there wasn't an
elsewhere. Perhaps we need to make it a little more
clear when people join what each list is for... Perhaps before they can
join they must sign up to be sent an FAQ?

> > Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
> >
>
>He was asking people to spell every word for him after he'd been shown the
>dictionary. That gets old.

Yeah I can understand that too... personally there are problems with both
sides here and maybe we just need to
clear the slate, everyone show Ron some good will by removing him from your
bit bucket lists and Ron show some
goodwill to everyone else by apologizing (which I note you've already done
twice... but in the interest of starting over...)


Hang in there everyone because Linux is built on its community. And hang
in there Ron because I've found this list very
friendly and helpful... if not at times abrasive and extremely opinionated.

I will now start a religious war:

I like pico.

There I said it ;)

-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Warn Kitchen wrote:

-snip-

> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.
>
> There I said it ;)
>

Then you cannot be dealt with. I have a subdir named /dev/null/pico just
for that.

On the other matter, I will remove Ron from /dev/null. I wasn't comfortable
with that anyway.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

True communication is possible only between equals, because
inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their
superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth.
- Eric S. Raymond
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
At 12:02 PM 6/25/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
>-snip-
>
> > I will now start a religious war:
> >
> > I like pico.
> >
> > There I said it ;)
> >
>
>Then you cannot be dealt with. I have a subdir named /dev/null/pico just
>for that.
>
>On the other matter, I will remove Ron from /dev/null. I wasn't comfortable
>with that anyway.
>

heh heh heh... Thank you Lan that makes me feel better too :)


>

-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
Chris Horner
2005-01-19 16:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Boy, I go away for a few days, and I miss all the fun. I know that this
thread (and the other associated ones) have lived much longer than they
had any right to, but I will add my little tidbit. This is strictly my
opinion and if you don't like it, well, that's cool.


Who did what to who, and who's right or wrong is pretty much a dead
issue, IMHO. What is relevant here is "How do we prevent this from
happening to our list again?" One of the reason's that this issue
devolved into 4 seperate and lengthy threads (at last count) is that
many of us allowed our personal feelings/attitudes to come across the
list, which also inspired others to throw in their "Me too" posts.

Hell, we're only human, flames happen. I speak from no high moral
ground here...I've spread plenty of napalm myself. Remember that one of
the recurring points that was made in these threads is that we want to
avoid crowding the list. What might have prevented this massive list
splatter is taking things off-list.

To take an example from Warn's email:

> And I wont even mention the flames the fly every time someone tries t
> unsubscribe the wrong way. You wont

Long ago I stopped replying to the list to try to educate these people.
I immediately take it private and direct to the user to explain how to
do what it is they want. Ditto with any "Panic Button" topics, those
sure to start a long and pointless thread. If we would all consider
this it would certainly reduce the level of crap threads that float
around. Note that it still gives each of us the right to send a "You
moron" email whenever we want or whenever it's deserving (and how
deserving some of them are :-) ).


I hope that this makes sense, I'm not firing on all cylinders yet this
morning.


Warn Kitchen wrote:

>
> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.
>

NO, NO, AHHHH, I can't resist: pico is for dweebs, there is only vi! ;)

-Chris Horner
(I just couldn't restrain myself, Yer Honor)
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:43:17AM -0700, Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.

i like pico too. it is a great example of what can possibly go wrong
with an editor.

there is only One True Editor: vi. and the best of the vi's is vim.
(it is iMproved, you know)

-john

note: djb has not written an editor yet. andy why not? vi has already
been written!!
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Warn Kitchen wrote:

-snip-

> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.
>
> There I said it ;)
>

Then you cannot be dealt with. I have a subdir named /dev/null/pico just
for that.

On the other matter, I will remove Ron from /dev/null. I wasn't comfortable
with that anyway.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

True communication is possible only between equals, because
inferiors are more consistently rewarded for telling their
superiors pleasant lies than for telling the truth.
- Eric S. Raymond
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
At 12:02 PM 6/25/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
>-snip-
>
> > I will now start a religious war:
> >
> > I like pico.
> >
> > There I said it ;)
> >
>
>Then you cannot be dealt with. I have a subdir named /dev/null/pico just
>for that.
>
>On the other matter, I will remove Ron from /dev/null. I wasn't comfortable
>with that anyway.
>

heh heh heh... Thank you Lan that makes me feel better too :)


>

-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
Chris Horner
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Boy, I go away for a few days, and I miss all the fun. I know that this
thread (and the other associated ones) have lived much longer than they
had any right to, but I will add my little tidbit. This is strictly my
opinion and if you don't like it, well, that's cool.


Who did what to who, and who's right or wrong is pretty much a dead
issue, IMHO. What is relevant here is "How do we prevent this from
happening to our list again?" One of the reason's that this issue
devolved into 4 seperate and lengthy threads (at last count) is that
many of us allowed our personal feelings/attitudes to come across the
list, which also inspired others to throw in their "Me too" posts.

Hell, we're only human, flames happen. I speak from no high moral
ground here...I've spread plenty of napalm myself. Remember that one of
the recurring points that was made in these threads is that we want to
avoid crowding the list. What might have prevented this massive list
splatter is taking things off-list.

To take an example from Warn's email:

> And I wont even mention the flames the fly every time someone tries t
> unsubscribe the wrong way. You wont

Long ago I stopped replying to the list to try to educate these people.
I immediately take it private and direct to the user to explain how to
do what it is they want. Ditto with any "Panic Button" topics, those
sure to start a long and pointless thread. If we would all consider
this it would certainly reduce the level of crap threads that float
around. Note that it still gives each of us the right to send a "You
moron" email whenever we want or whenever it's deserving (and how
deserving some of them are :-) ).


I hope that this makes sense, I'm not firing on all cylinders yet this
morning.


Warn Kitchen wrote:

>
> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.
>

NO, NO, AHHHH, I can't resist: pico is for dweebs, there is only vi! ;)

-Chris Horner
(I just couldn't restrain myself, Yer Honor)
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 18:15:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:43:17AM -0700, Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
> I will now start a religious war:
>
> I like pico.

i like pico too. it is a great example of what can possibly go wrong
with an editor.

there is only One True Editor: vi. and the best of the vi's is vim.
(it is iMproved, you know)

-john

note: djb has not written an editor yet. andy why not? vi has already
been written!!
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Warn Kitchen wrote:

> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>

I recall that this was done with Ron.

> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.

I don't recall you cussing out the people who were offering help.

> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>

He was asking people to spell every word for him after he'd been shown the
dictionary. That gets old.

> -Warn
> ***@email.sjsu.edu
> One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
>

Exactly!

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
- Ken Olsen, DEC President, 1977
Darrel Lawrence
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>
> What happened to that kind of support?

That was exactly the kind of support that was provided. But he took all the
referrals and suggestions as personal insults, and attacked those giving
them. What is important to realize is that the list didn't suddenly change
and become more hostile to newbies. He came in aggressively, and showed
little interest in adapting himself to our customs. Rather, he felt that we
should help him, and he need show no respect to the list, or to us. He
doesn't care about "our" terminology, just tell him how to configure SAMBA.
He says Igor needs better interpersonal skills, when its obvious that its him
to needs to improve. He was rude and he brought this on himself. We've had
a lot of personal flame wars, but his is the first time I remember seeing,
"SHUT THE @#$ UP" on this list. Its people like him that drove me off of
EFNET, as its tiring to deal with. My point is that I have seen newbies make
the same mistakes as him, but when they are redressed for their mistakes,
they *follow the instructions*, humble themselves, and become regular list
members.


> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.
> The greatest thing about the Linux community to me is the same thing that
> makes it great for
> me to hang out at airports We all have the same interest. We're a
> community and a family,
> you can't say that about windows users.

Yes, we are a family. Being a newbie, he is like a child in that family,
which means he must learn from and respect his elders. Nobody was abusing
him.


> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>
> If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And maybe he should.

Sigh.
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
At 11:27 AM 6/25/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Warn Kitchen wrote:
>
> > Why not do this:
> > Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
> > spread the camaraderie
> > and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
> > that they may be
> > better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
> > no doubt much more
> > relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
> > handle your request,
> > oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
> > etc. etc..
> >
>
>I recall that this was done with Ron.

Ron is not the only person I have seen things I did not like with
lately. And yes, Ron got hostile and defensive but considering
the response he's gotten I think my feelings would be a little hurt too. I
do not keep my Kplug mail normally so I don't have an
exact post and name, but there have been a couple times lately that a
person or persons on this list have been extremely inflexible.
Two times in particular a new person has asked a question and derailed a
thread and someone posts a very insulting message about
the way threaded email works and still never even bothered to acknowledge
the fact that they asked a question. Really... explain how
threaded email works and suggest they repost the message as a new
header. You don't help by insulting them, it only makes them
more set in their ways. And I wont even mention the flames the fly every
time someone tries to unsubscribe the wrong way. You wont
help them by making them feel stupid, you'll only keep them from speaking
up in the future, and you might even cause them to spread
that garbage elsewhere because they think that's the way people on mailing
lists are supposed to act. All of you had to learn how a
mailing list works at one time, some of you may have made a mistake or
two. I hope there were people around that explained to you
in a calm and rational way.

We are all at one point Linux children, we put our hands in the fire and
the thing that makes us a family is that our elders will comfort
us and bandage our burns.


> > Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
> > long ago... come
> > on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
> > gone somewhere else.
>
>I don't recall you cussing out the people who were offering help.

No you're right, I didn't. But then again... the people I asked for help
never told me to take it elsewhere either. This
*is* a linux HELP list is it not?

Of course it should be noted that when I joined there wasn't an
elsewhere. Perhaps we need to make it a little more
clear when people join what each list is for... Perhaps before they can
join they must sign up to be sent an FAQ?

> > Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?
> >
>
>He was asking people to spell every word for him after he'd been shown the
>dictionary. That gets old.

Yeah I can understand that too... personally there are problems with both
sides here and maybe we just need to
clear the slate, everyone show Ron some good will by removing him from your
bit bucket lists and Ron show some
goodwill to everyone else by apologizing (which I note you've already done
twice... but in the interest of starting over...)


Hang in there everyone because Linux is built on its community. And hang
in there Ron because I've found this list very
friendly and helpful... if not at times abrasive and extremely opinionated.

I will now start a religious war:

I like pico.

There I said it ;)

-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
John Wenger
2005-01-19 18:15:02 UTC
Permalink
George Georgalis wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:
>
> >newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> >from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> >endanger the main list.
>
> I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
> prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
> of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
> Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
> today!).

I came to my belief through analysis. Whatever the genesis of
motivation for creating the Newbie list, it seems clear to me now that
the Newbie list should also also handle all of the list traffic
generated by newbie questions. If this is not done, then what
prevents the main list from being overloaded with newbie traffic?
Nothing does, and the main list is overloaded. I propose to solve, at
least in part, the overloading of the main list by diverting the
newbie questions to the newbie list where they will receive special
handling.

If you dislike my proposal, then I ask you to provide your own
proposal. I assume that you do agree that the main list is somewhat
overloaded. And even if you do not agree that the list is yet
overloaded, do you believe that mainlist traffic will not increase
with the further growth of Linux?

As this growth continues, it will tend to drive the stronger users
away. As evidence, consider this recent posting from Robert
Cunningham:

--------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Too many messages! How about a KPLUG news server?
Date:
Sat, 26 May 2001 13:03:06 -0700
From:
"Robert W. Cunningham" <***@yahoo.com>
Reply-To:
kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
To:
kplug <kplug-***@kernel-panic.org>

I ignore my email for several days, and come back to find my mail box
filled with 250 messages, 220 of which were from this list!

This is a bit much: Like Freshmeat did long ago when their list
traffic
soared, I'd recommend moving or at least copying this list traffic to
a
news server, if possible.

I'll dip into Tracey's archives now and then to stay aware of KPLUG
happenings, and I'll visit the KPLUG site often, but this list no
longer
works for me, and I've decided to unsubscribe.

It's been fun!


-BobC

-------------------------------------------------
>
> Sure it would be nice if every post was a better howoto, but that's not
> the newbie's fault. I don't exactly know what all the questions have
> been about but if somebody runs out of patience somebody else can help,
> that's an advantage of using a list.

It is in a sense the newbie's fault for using the wrong list. The
Newbie list has a different "culture" by policy; this was done
deliberately to create a somewhat more nurturing environment for the
newbies.

I have taken special pains on the Newbie list to write explanations
designed (when I knew enough) to teach some context beyond the
shortest and most cryptic answers.

> If you don't feel like helping a newbie, don't. Nobody in there right
> mind answers all the questions, even if they could. When someone finds
> the list is not informative enough for them they are free to pursue
> other resources. But if people want to help, who has the right to stop
> them?

I do and have felt like helping the newbies. I just found 71 posts of
mine there. I consider these posts to be part of my credentials for
opining here.

John
Warn Kitchen
2005-01-19 18:15:03 UTC
Permalink
At 02:55 PM 6/24/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:
> >
> > >newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> > >from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> > >endanger the main list.
> >
> > I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
> > prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
> > of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
> > Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
> > today!).
>
>I came to my belief through analysis. Whatever the genesis of
>motivation for creating the Newbie list, it seems clear to me now that
>the Newbie list should also also handle all of the list traffic
>generated by newbie questions. If this is not done, then what
>prevents the main list from being overloaded with newbie traffic?
>Nothing does, and the main list is overloaded. I propose to solve, at
>least in part, the overloading of the main list by diverting the
>newbie questions to the newbie list where they will receive special
>handling.
>
>If you dislike my proposal, then I ask you to provide your own
>proposal. I assume that you do agree that the main list is somewhat
>overloaded. And even if you do not agree that the list is yet
>overloaded, do you believe that mainlist traffic will not increase
>with the further growth of Linux?
>
>As this growth continues, it will tend to drive the stronger users
>away. As evidence, consider this recent posting from Robert
>Cunningham:
>
>--------------------------------------------------


Why not do this:
Answer the question like civilized adults and people who care and want to
spread the camaraderie
and good faith that I know exists in the Linux community and then suggest
that they may be
better able to find help on the newbie list which has many topics that are
no doubt much more
relevant to someone who is just learning and is also better equipped to
handle your request,
oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie list by going to etc..
etc. etc..

What happened to that kind of support?

Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was a newbie once not that
long ago... come
on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if you had I would have
gone somewhere else.
The greatest thing about the Linux community to me is the same thing that
makes it great for
me to hang out at airports We all have the same interest. We're a
community and a family,
you can't say that about windows users.

Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions, that's GREAT! Isn't it?

If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And maybe he should.



-Warn
***@email.sjsu.edu
One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
Anthony M. Abate
2005-01-19 18:15:00 UTC
Permalink
John,
I probably should have been a little clearer, I do advocate the newbie list.
I also suggest lurking here to pick more detailed information, I must have
missed Bob's posting to him ....... my error.


On Sunday 24 June 2001 02:21 am, you wrote:
> "Anthony M. Abate" wrote:
> > John,
> > While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
> > completely wrong.
>
> You are probably right. I was feeling frustrated when I wrote that
> msg, and felt that something drastic needed to be done.
>
> > This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
> > discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
> > list was receiving by neophytes.
>
> I agree with you. Thirtynine msgs in a single thread suggests that
> that thread be taken immediately to the newbie list.
>
> > I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
> > "understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here.
>
> And it still has not been said. However, I do believe that newbies
> would serve themselves best by lurking on the main list for at least a
> month before posting. That is considered to be good list ettiquette.
> On the other hand, newbies should begin posting immediately to the
> newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
> from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
> endanger the main list.
>
> > Many people don't
> > know all the resources available on the net or how to find them.
>
> But this one did know. He knew about the KPLUG website as evidenced
> by the observation that he joined the list. Bob La Quey told him
> about Google on Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:47:59 -0700.
>
> > Wouldn't it
> > have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
> > investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.
>
> I deny that my comment was rude. I prefer to think of it as direct
> instructions. I look forward to helping him on the Newbie list.
>
> > Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
> > successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure
> > the public falls out of the M$ trance.
> >
> > I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all
> > the time.
>
> I believe that you should promote the Newbie list instead of the main
> list. Why are you not promoting the Newbie list which was created
> precisely for the needs of newbies?
>
> Technically strong users (e.g., Robert Cunningham) have quit this list
> recently because the volume of postings was too high. This is a bad
> thing. Please help solve this problem by asking all newbies to use
> the newbie list instead of this list, and to use this list when the
> newbie list fails them. Everyone should read both lists, and send
> their questions to the appropriate list.
>
> > I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
> > times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left
> > because of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some
> > list members.
>
> This provides additional support for the idea that they signed up for
> the wrong list. This would not have happened to them on the newbie
> list.
>
> > This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would
> > be right.
>
> Even worse, in my opinion, would be to ruin the main list by
> over-burdening it with Newbie questions. This would tend to drive out
> strong users, and also to kill the Newbie list. One of the very best
> things about Kplug is its willingness to create specialized lists to
> provide support for any subgroup. John Terpstra, then a VP of Turbo
> Linux, and a major developer and organizer of the Samba project, once
> told me that the best lists are completely willing to spin off
> subgroups at the drop of a hat.
>
> Please join me in encouraging newbies to use the newbies list to
> better support everyone's needs.
>
> Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
>
> John
George Georgalis
2005-01-19 18:15:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:21:27AM -0700, John Wenger wrote:

>newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
>from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
>endanger the main list.

I'm not sure where this attitude is from. The kooler was designed to
prevent off topic list endangerment. The newbie list is for the benefit
of the newbies not wanting email overload. While the main list is for
Linux education in the spirit of Linux development (just coined that
today!).

Sure it would be nice if every post was a better howoto, but that's not
the newbie's fault. I don't exactly know what all the questions have
been about but if somebody runs out of patience somebody else can help,
that's an advantage of using a list.

If you don't feel like helping a newbie, don't. Nobody in there right
mind answers all the questions, even if they could. When someone finds
the list is not informative enough for them they are free to pursue
other resources. But if people want to help, who has the right to stop
them?

// George



--
GEORGE GEORGALIS ><> http://www.galis.org/george
PO Box 3342 <>< <>< email: ***@galis.org
La Jolla, CA 92038 ><> ><> cell: 858-829-4004
John Wenger
2005-01-19 18:15:00 UTC
Permalink
"Anthony M. Abate" wrote:
>
> John,
> While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
> completely wrong.

You are probably right. I was feeling frustrated when I wrote that
msg, and felt that something drastic needed to be done.

> This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
> discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
> list was receiving by neophytes.

I agree with you. Thirtynine msgs in a single thread suggests that
that thread be taken immediately to the newbie list.

> I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
> "understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here.

And it still has not been said. However, I do believe that newbies
would serve themselves best by lurking on the main list for at least a
month before posting. That is considered to be good list ettiquette.
On the other hand, newbies should begin posting immediately to the
newbie list since it is expressly for newbies. Newbies should refrain
from asking newbie questions to the main list. Otherwise, they will
endanger the main list.

> Many people don't
> know all the resources available on the net or how to find them.

But this one did know. He knew about the KPLUG website as evidenced
by the observation that he joined the list. Bob La Quey told him
about Google on Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:47:59 -0700.

> Wouldn't it
> have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
> investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.

I deny that my comment was rude. I prefer to think of it as direct
instructions. I look forward to helping him on the Newbie list.

> Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
> successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure the
> public falls out of the M$ trance.
>
> I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all the
> time.

I believe that you should promote the Newbie list instead of the main
list. Why are you not promoting the Newbie list which was created
precisely for the needs of newbies?

Technically strong users (e.g., Robert Cunningham) have quit this list
recently because the volume of postings was too high. This is a bad
thing. Please help solve this problem by asking all newbies to use
the newbie list instead of this list, and to use this list when the
newbie list fails them. Everyone should read both lists, and send
their questions to the appropriate list.

> I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
> times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left because
> of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some list members.

This provides additional support for the idea that they signed up for
the wrong list. This would not have happened to them on the newbie
list.

> This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would be
> right.

Even worse, in my opinion, would be to ruin the main list by
over-burdening it with Newbie questions. This would tend to drive out
strong users, and also to kill the Newbie list. One of the very best
things about Kplug is its willingness to create specialized lists to
provide support for any subgroup. John Terpstra, then a VP of Turbo
Linux, and a major developer and organizer of the Samba project, once
told me that the best lists are completely willing to spin off
subgroups at the drop of a hat.

Please join me in encouraging newbies to use the newbies list to
better support everyone's needs.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

John
maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Wow I need to read this more often there are some very
upset people out there, I hope that no one leave to
anywere ells. I have been around this people since
realy early on and I know how good everyone can be. I
think this is just a misunderstanding and we should
all just begin again. Ron you can email me directly
if you want I will try to help you or will find out
the answare for you.

maveric...



> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people
> who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux
> community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which
> has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also
> better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie
> list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>
> What happened to that kind of support?
>
> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was
> a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if
> you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.
> The greatest thing about the Linux community to me
> is the same thing that
> makes it great for
> me to hang out at airports We all have the same
> interest. We're a
> community and a family,
> you can't say that about windows users.
>
> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions,
> that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>
> If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And
> maybe he should.
>
>
>
> -Warn
> ***@email.sjsu.edu
> One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
>
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address
> shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
>
>


=====
Maveric Maveriq
AKA First Jedi Master
Great Great Great Great
Great Grandfather to Luke
UNIX Systems Administrator
Analog Devices
***@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Ron I just when back trough the your e-mails and this
is something we never do in this list. I have to
agree I have never ever in 4 or 5 years seen this in
this list.

maveric


but his is the first
> time I remember seeing,
> "SHUT THE @#$ UP" on this list.

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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:41 UTC
Permalink
I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
but vi it does everything....


My 2 cents


maveric
--- "John H. Robinson, IV" <***@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:43:17AM -0700, Warn
> Kitchen wrote:
> >
> > I will now start a religious war:
> >
> > I like pico.
>
> i like pico too. it is a great example of what can
> possibly go wrong
> with an editor.
>
> there is only One True Editor: vi. and the best of
> the vi's is vim.
> (it is iMproved, you know)
>
> -john
>
> note: djb has not written an editor yet. andy why
> not? vi has already
> been written!!
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address
> shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
>
>


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Joe Heuring
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....
>
>
> My 2 cents


how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?

$ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?

Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
on the monitor and in ram.
Neil J. Fergusson
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
I never had much luck automating the 'set -o vi' command (as in .bashrc,
etc.)

I finally opted for:

1. Create a file ~/.inputrc containing the line:
set editing-mode vi

2. Add the line:
unset INPUTRC
near the beginning of your .bash_profile

3. Log out then log in.

- Neil Fergusson



Joe Heuring wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> > don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> > vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> > great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> > ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> > kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> > but vi it does everything....
> >
> >
> > My 2 cents
>
> how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?
>
> $ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
> scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?
>
> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:04AM -0700, Joe Heuring wrote:
>
> how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?
>
> $ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
> scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?

set -o vi jsut tells the shell to use vi key bindings for command
line editing. this has NOTHING to do with whatever text has been spewed
out by any commands.

let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
something like:

mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
overkill.


you can also, is some shells, do something like:

vi <(ls)

but if you do not write vi's buffer out prior to closing vi, then any
edits youhave are lost.

this, however, is not what you are asking.


> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.

beyond the scope. vi is nothing but a text editor. some programs can
invoke an editor to edit whatever they are playing with, but that
usually is not hteir primary function.

in lynx, you can hit ``e'' to [e]dit the current page. you need to
define an editor (not sure how, as i have the $EDITOR and $VISUAL
environmental variables set, and that does not make my lynx happy)

i do not know if that will edit the HTML source, or the rendered page.
but you can play with it.

vi is not the end all be all of everything. but it can do a lot. from
within vi, youc an read in the output of a program.

:r!ls
:r!lynx -dump

(don't try it w/o the -dump flag - it will work, but not as you expect)


good luck!!

-john
Neil J. Fergusson
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
I never had much luck automating the 'set -o vi' command (as in .bashrc,
etc.)

I finally opted for:

1. Create a file ~/.inputrc containing the line:
set editing-mode vi

2. Add the line:
unset INPUTRC
near the beginning of your .bash_profile

3. Log out then log in.

- Neil Fergusson



Joe Heuring wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> > don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> > vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> > great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> > ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> > kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> > but vi it does everything....
> >
> >
> > My 2 cents
>
> how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?
>
> $ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
> scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?
>
> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:04AM -0700, Joe Heuring wrote:
>
> how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?
>
> $ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
> scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?

set -o vi jsut tells the shell to use vi key bindings for command
line editing. this has NOTHING to do with whatever text has been spewed
out by any commands.

let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
something like:

mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
overkill.


you can also, is some shells, do something like:

vi <(ls)

but if you do not write vi's buffer out prior to closing vi, then any
edits youhave are lost.

this, however, is not what you are asking.


> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.

beyond the scope. vi is nothing but a text editor. some programs can
invoke an editor to edit whatever they are playing with, but that
usually is not hteir primary function.

in lynx, you can hit ``e'' to [e]dit the current page. you need to
define an editor (not sure how, as i have the $EDITOR and $VISUAL
environmental variables set, and that does not make my lynx happy)

i do not know if that will edit the HTML source, or the rendered page.
but you can play with it.

vi is not the end all be all of everything. but it can do a lot. from
within vi, youc an read in the output of a program.

:r!ls
:r!lynx -dump

(don't try it w/o the -dump flag - it will work, but not as you expect)


good luck!!

-john
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
maveric maveriq wrote:
>
> I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....
>
> My 2 cents
>

emacs use contributes to the power shortage.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

Good UNIX, set -x
- Greg Mohler
Mark Wagnon
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On 06/26/01 10:43:51 -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:

> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....


That sounds like Greg. That guy's a riot. BTW, I use vim too ;-)

--
Mark Wagnon <***@home.com>
Joe Heuring
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....
>
>
> My 2 cents


how hard would it be to incorporate vi into the shell more?

$ set -o vi ----------I know but how about 'cat' a bunch of text,
scroll up to a desired line yank and put it somewhere?

Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come shamelessly into a
software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get is "learn how to use
shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like though to be able to
say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take over what ever text is
on the monitor and in ram.
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
maveric maveriq wrote:
>
> I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
> don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
> vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....
>
> My 2 cents
>

emacs use contributes to the power shortage.

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

Good UNIX, set -x
- Greg Mohler
Mark Wagnon
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
On 06/26/01 10:43:51 -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:

> great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
> ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
> but vi it does everything....


That sounds like Greg. That guy's a riot. BTW, I use vim too ;-)

--
Mark Wagnon <***@home.com>
maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.


Me no like that......

maveric

> emacs use contributes to the power shortage.
>
> --
> Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
> Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677
>
> Good UNIX, set -x
> - Greg Mohler
>


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Serge Rey
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
>

that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.

i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
BEST products.

anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
recommend avoiding?).


thanks,
serge

--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
"routing problems on the neural net" - Today's BOFH Excuse
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Serge Rey wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> >
>
> that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
>
> i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
> BEST products.
>
> anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
> recommend avoiding?).

CCC has used and refurbs in the $40 - $50 range.

_My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

They have computers, and they may have other weapons of
mass destruction.
- Janet Reno
Serge Rey
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:34:34AM -0700, Lan Barnes wrote:
> Serge Rey wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> > >
> >
> > that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> > linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> > obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> > ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> > while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
> >
> > i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
> > BEST products.
> >
> > anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
> > recommend avoiding?).
>
> CCC has used and refurbs in the $40 - $50 range.

great, thanks for the pointer.

>
> _My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
> ;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
> feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
> on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
> and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

i saw all those cool ascii art diagrams on performing these surgical
operations on the cords in the howtos. very neat looking stuff.

>
> I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!

unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
to rig my own serial cable.

s.
--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
seems you let a lot pass you by
when you let ambition decide
- Todd Park Mohr "Beautiful World"
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Serge Rey wrote:
>
> unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
> job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
> having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
> to rig my own serial cable.
>
> s.

Here's the scoop as far as I understand it (my notes are at home). Modern
UPSs take a straight through serial cable and have a plethora of
meaningful, sensitive and compelling messages that they can send the
server(s). The old kind I got needs a special cable and can only say "Hey,
bro, no juice" and can only hear "OK, shut down." {That is, a command from
the server telling the UPS to switch off.}

I believe most modern ones can be switched back and forth between
recognizing the new messages or the old.

The "special cable" is really a straight through with two pins tied
together to keep a signal high until the lights go out. So with a simple
soldering iron and a low power resistor, you're home free. I have the
diagram somewhere if you want it.

This becomes important when selecting the monitoring daemon to run on the
server. Freshmeat has the listings for these. The one I gravitated to
(again, I can get you the URL but only later) has an optional GUI front
end, and allows one server to signal to others that the power has gone
bye-bye so they can shut down in concert. Pretty cool -- only needs one
modified cable :-)

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

People have one great blessing -- obscurity -- and not really too
many people are thankful for it
- Bob Dylan
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Serge Rey wrote:
>
> unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
> job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
> having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
> to rig my own serial cable.
>
> s.

Here's the scoop as far as I understand it (my notes are at home). Modern
UPSs take a straight through serial cable and have a plethora of
meaningful, sensitive and compelling messages that they can send the
server(s). The old kind I got needs a special cable and can only say "Hey,
bro, no juice" and can only hear "OK, shut down." {That is, a command from
the server telling the UPS to switch off.}

I believe most modern ones can be switched back and forth between
recognizing the new messages or the old.

The "special cable" is really a straight through with two pins tied
together to keep a signal high until the lights go out. So with a simple
soldering iron and a low power resistor, you're home free. I have the
diagram somewhere if you want it.

This becomes important when selecting the monitoring daemon to run on the
server. Freshmeat has the listings for these. The one I gravitated to
(again, I can get you the URL but only later) has an optional GUI front
end, and allows one server to signal to others that the power has gone
bye-bye so they can shut down in concert. Pretty cool -- only needs one
modified cable :-)

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

People have one great blessing -- obscurity -- and not really too
many people are thankful for it
- Bob Dylan
Serge Rey
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:34:34AM -0700, Lan Barnes wrote:
> Serge Rey wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> > >
> >
> > that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> > linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> > obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> > ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> > while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
> >
> > i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
> > BEST products.
> >
> > anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
> > recommend avoiding?).
>
> CCC has used and refurbs in the $40 - $50 range.

great, thanks for the pointer.

>
> _My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
> ;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
> feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
> on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
> and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

i saw all those cool ascii art diagrams on performing these surgical
operations on the cords in the howtos. very neat looking stuff.

>
> I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!

unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
to rig my own serial cable.

s.
--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
seems you let a lot pass you by
when you let ambition decide
- Todd Park Mohr "Beautiful World"
Lan Barnes
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Serge Rey wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> >
>
> that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
>
> i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
> BEST products.
>
> anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
> recommend avoiding?).

CCC has used and refurbs in the $40 - $50 range.

_My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!

--
Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677

They have computers, and they may have other weapons of
mass destruction.
- Janet Reno
Serge Rey
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
>

that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.

i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
BEST products.

anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
recommend avoiding?).


thanks,
serge

--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
"routing problems on the neural net" - Today's BOFH Excuse
maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
I don't know if you can do that but I think I would
use linx in a shell so that I can highlight it and
center click on the other shell with vi in (i) mode.

> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come
> shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get
> is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like
> though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take
> over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Wade Curry
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
I didn't actually understand this command line fully.

John H. Robinson, IV(***@ucsd.edu)@Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:44:03AM -0700:
> let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
> something like:
>
> mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
^^ ^^
current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
who didn't recognize it at 1st
glance. man bash

I'm assuming bash here, but when I do this: mkdir %% ,I get a
directory that is named "%%". It looks like we're missing a
semicolon right before or after the "%%". In any case, I don't
understand what its roll is.

I understood everything else from the "chown" to the end.
>
> of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
> overkill.

Well... Yeah! Please show us the hard way! :D

More for those who are new to vi(m).:
Sending the output of ls to vi is a really nifty *fast* way to
start a script that will do something to all the files in the
listing. The *easy* way to do it would be to run vim,
then enter command mode (type a colon) so you can enter this at the
bottom-
:r! ls

This puts the current directory listing into the editor.

Of course, you can use any of ls' gigajillion options, or a
different command altogether.



Wade Curry wcurryATcts.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do I have to compile it? Looking for a position
No, I *get* to compile it. working with *nix as a
It's about freedom. Sys. Admin. or other.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Amit Chakradeo
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
>
> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

It should really read,
mkdir /tmp/joe && chmod 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:38:59PM -0700, Amit Chakradeo wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
> >
> > > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
>
> It should really read,
> mkdir /tmp/joe && chmod 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

yep. it sure should :)

-john

/me takes his keyboard in for recalibration
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:38:59PM -0700, Amit Chakradeo wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
> >
> > > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
>
> It should really read,
> mkdir /tmp/joe && chmod 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

yep. it sure should :)

-john

/me takes his keyboard in for recalibration
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
>
> I didn't actually understand this command line fully.

looking at how i munged it, nor do i :(


> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
> ^^ ^^
> current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
> who didn't recognize it at 1st
> glance. man bash

that was a total mistake. the %% shold have ben &&, and the chmow was
actually a chmod.


> > of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
> > overkill.
>
> Well... Yeah! Please show us the hard way! :D

it's important, security wise. mkdir will fail if the desired dir
already exists. so we chain it with a &&, so if the mkdir fails, we
bail out.

once the dir is made, we give it restrictive permissions. (when if you
have a sane umask, no one else could have written to anyway), so no one
can sneak in and put a symlink is to some other file. we now have a safe
directory that we can dump temp files to to our hearts content. and we
do. from the ls. then we can edit it.

otherwise, you can open yourself up to a symlink attack. but these types
of atacks are usually a carried out againse root-owned processes
(otherwise, an attacker can only attack other user-owned files. and that
is usually not too much fun)

-john
Chris K. Young
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Quoted from jaqque, the super Debian jock [27 Jun 2001]:
> once the dir is made, we give it restrictive permissions. (when if you
> have a sane umask, no one else could have written to anyway), so no one
> can sneak in and put a symlink is to some other file.

Yes, but

mkdir foo && chmod 0700 foo

is the wrong way to do it (can you say ``race condition''?). mkdir(1)
has a -m option, for the same reason that mkdir(2) has two arguments.

> we now have a safe
> directory that we can dump temp files to to our hearts content. and we
> do. from the ls. then we can edit it.

There's a wonderful function called mkdtemp(3) (available on OpenBSD
if nowhere else) that makes a temporary directory. If the directory it
tries already exists, it will try again, until it either succeeds, or
decides to give up.

There's a wrapper program, mktemp(1). You can invoke it from shell
scripts with the -d option. Whether this is available outside of
OpenBSD, I don't know.

---Chris K.
--
Chris, the Young One |_ I'd love to see "hacker" added to doctor and
Auckland, New Zealand |_ lawyer for things every parent wants their kid
GnuPG: AF686BD0E607D9AB |_ to grow up to be. ---Tracy R. Reed
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 06:09:43PM +1200, Chris K. Young wrote:
> Quoted from jaqque, the super Debian jock [27 Jun 2001]:
> > once the dir is made, we give it restrictive permissions. (when if you
> > have a sane umask, no one else could have written to anyway), so no one
> > can sneak in and put a symlink is to some other file.
>
> Yes, but
>
> mkdir foo && chmod 0700 foo
>
> is the wrong way to do it (can you say ``race condition''?). mkdir(1)
> has a -m option, for the same reason that mkdir(2) has two arguments.

which is why i threw in the disclaimer about a sane umask.

-john

umask 022 or umask 002
Amit Chakradeo
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
>
> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls

It should really read,
mkdir /tmp/joe && chmod 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
>
> I didn't actually understand this command line fully.

looking at how i munged it, nor do i :(


> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
> ^^ ^^
> current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
> who didn't recognize it at 1st
> glance. man bash

that was a total mistake. the %% shold have ben &&, and the chmow was
actually a chmod.


> > of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
> > overkill.
>
> Well... Yeah! Please show us the hard way! :D

it's important, security wise. mkdir will fail if the desired dir
already exists. so we chain it with a &&, so if the mkdir fails, we
bail out.

once the dir is made, we give it restrictive permissions. (when if you
have a sane umask, no one else could have written to anyway), so no one
can sneak in and put a symlink is to some other file. we now have a safe
directory that we can dump temp files to to our hearts content. and we
do. from the ls. then we can edit it.

otherwise, you can open yourself up to a symlink attack. but these types
of atacks are usually a carried out againse root-owned processes
(otherwise, an attacker can only attack other user-owned files. and that
is usually not too much fun)

-john
Neil Schneider
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
I have an APC SmartUPS 1400 here, running apcupsd, as well as several
clients doing the same. It works pretty well, and in the case of a power
failure, do an orderly shutdown of the servers. How is that Linux
unfriendly?

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Serge Rey wrote:

SR>that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
SR>linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
SR>obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
SR>ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
SR>while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
SR>
SR>i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
SR>BEST products.
SR>
SR>anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
SR>recommend avoiding?).
SR>
SR>
SR>thanks,
SR>serge
SR>
SR>

--
Neil Schneider ***@linuxgeek.net
Ballmer's bleatings for Bill's billions is just the whine of a dying pig.
Bob La Quey
Serge Rey
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:40:21PM -0700, Neil Schneider wrote:
> I have an APC SmartUPS 1400 here, running apcupsd, as well as several
> clients doing the same. It works pretty well, and in the case of a power
> failure, do an orderly shutdown of the servers. How is that Linux
> unfriendly?

didn't mean to imply APC was linux unfriendly, but my reading of things
was that APC was not as linux friendly as BEST.

your set up sounds linux friendly to me, and i appreciate the knowledge
on the daemon you use as well as the model of UPS.

thanks,
s.
--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
"The user's computer downloads the ActiveX code and simulates a 'Blue
Screen' crash, a generally benign event most users are familiar with
and that would not necessarily arouse suspicions."
-- Security exploit description on http://www.zks.net/p3/how.asp
Serge Rey
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:40:21PM -0700, Neil Schneider wrote:
> I have an APC SmartUPS 1400 here, running apcupsd, as well as several
> clients doing the same. It works pretty well, and in the case of a power
> failure, do an orderly shutdown of the servers. How is that Linux
> unfriendly?

didn't mean to imply APC was linux unfriendly, but my reading of things
was that APC was not as linux friendly as BEST.

your set up sounds linux friendly to me, and i appreciate the knowledge
on the daemon you use as well as the model of UPS.

thanks,
s.
--
Sergio J. Rey http://typhoon.sdsu.edu/rey.html
"The user's computer downloads the ActiveX code and simulates a 'Blue
Screen' crash, a generally benign event most users are familiar with
and that would not necessarily arouse suspicions."
-- Security exploit description on http://www.zks.net/p3/how.asp
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:30:08 +0000
> From: Serge Rey <***@typhoon.sdsu.edu>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
> In-Reply-To: <***@web14301.mail.yahoo.com>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> >
>
> that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.

1. My brother, who is in the power conditioning business, has nothing
but bad to say abouat Best UPS's. Apparently they put lots of garbage
on the line.

2. Software for handling APC and perhaps other UPS's can be found
under the name "apcupsd". That's d as in Daemon. Try Google or equivalent.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:34:34 -0700
> From: Lan Barnes <***@san.rr.com>
> Organization: Icon Consulting, Inc
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
>
>
> _My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
> ;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
> feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
> on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
> and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

Gateway Electronics, Chesapeake St. is the place I would go for
electronic bits and pieces. Would not use ribbon cable because
the connection from the UPS to the computer is not straight 1:1.

At least it isn't 1:1 for APC units.

I'm sure that if you had a cable wiring diagram there are two or
three places in town that would make you one for a moderate fee.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:49:21 +0000
> From: Serge Rey <***@typhoon.sdsu.edu>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
> In-Reply-To: <***@san.rr.com>
>
> i saw all those cool ascii art diagrams on performing these surgical
> operations on the cords in the howtos. very neat looking stuff.
>
> >
> > I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!
>
> unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
> job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
> having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
> to rig my own serial cable.

I think the most likely risk would be burning your finger on the
wrong end of the soldering iron. :-)

OK, not everyone is an amateur electronics tech or a professional
applied physicist.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:27:07 -0700
> From: Wade Curry <***@cts.com>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: JHRIV's command line WAS: Mailing List Abuse
> Reply-To: ***@cts.com
> In-Reply-To: <***@ucsd.edu>
>
>
> I didn't actually understand this command line fully.
>
> John H. Robinson, IV(***@ucsd.edu)@Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:44:03AM -0700:
> > let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
> > something like:
> >
> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
> ^^ ^^
> current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
> who didn't recognize it at 1st
> glance. man bash
>
> I'm assuming bash here, but when I do this: mkdir %% ,I get a
> directory that is named "%%". It looks like we're missing a
> semicolon right before or after the "%%". In any case, I don't
> understand what its roll is.

I don't know what shell jhriv is using, but if he is using anything
related to a Bourne shell, that should be $$ not %%. It produces
an ASCII string equal to the current job number, thus presumably
unique.

carl
Wade Curry
2005-01-19 16:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Amit Chakradeo(amit-***@amc.homeip.net)@Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:38:59PM -0700:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:27:07PM -0700, Wade Curry wrote:
> >
> > > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
>
> It should really read,
> mkdir /tmp/joe && chmod 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
>
OK, that makes sense. Of course people will also have to read
between the lines in my post where i said that chmow was supposed
to be chmod. :)



Wade Curry wcurryATcts.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth,
but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Churchill
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Darin Sugioka
2005-01-19 16:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Can anyone recommend a news server that is not censored like COX and RR and
is reasonably fast to @home in San Diego area?
Martin Glazer
2005-01-19 16:51:43 UTC
Permalink
usenet.com

Darin Sugioka wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a news server that is not censored like COX and RR and
> is reasonably fast to @home in San Diego area?
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
Gus Wirth
2005-01-19 16:51:43 UTC
Permalink
At 11:34 06/26/2001 -0700, Lan Barnes wrote:
>_My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
>;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
>feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
>on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
>and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?
>
>I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!

Gateway Electronics on Cheasapeake Ave is a great place for electronic parts. CCC also has stuff in the back room but not as much. Fry's Electonics also carries all the apropriate parts. You will want to make sure you get a pin insertion/extraction tool if you intend to make up your own DB-9 connectors. They are a real pain if you try to solder them directly in the shell.

Gus
Johnathen K. Lieber
2005-01-19 16:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Okay, I changed the topic, and snipped! :P

I've seen a few messages concerning equipment, so I figured I'd post this.
I believe they are still around but if you in the East County (El Cajon)
there is a place (used to be called R&D Electronics or something like that).
It's on Johnson near Main St. They had all sorts of cables and anything
else you could imagine....



Gateway Electronics on Cheasapeake Ave is a great place for electronic
parts. CCC also has stuff in the back room but not as much. Fry's Electonics
also carries all the apropriate parts. You will want to make sure you get a
pin insertion/extraction tool if you intend to make up your own DB-9
connectors. They are a real pain if you try to solder them directly in the
shell.

Gus
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:43 UTC
Permalink
> Date: 27 Jun 2001 18:09:43 +1200
> From: "Chris K. Young" <***@pobox.com>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: JHRIV's command line
> In-Reply-To: <***@ucsd.edu>
>
> Quoted from jaqque, the super Debian jock [27 Jun 2001]:
> > once the dir is made, we give it restrictive permissions. (when if you
> > have a sane umask, no one else could have written to anyway), so no one
> > can sneak in and put a symlink is to some other file.
>
> Yes, but
>
> mkdir foo && chmod 0700 foo
>
> is the wrong way to do it (can you say ``race condition''?). mkdir(1)
> has a -m option, for the same reason that mkdir(2) has two arguments.
>
> > we now have a safe
> > directory that we can dump temp files to to our hearts content. and we
> > do. from the ls. then we can edit it.
>
> There's a wonderful function called mkdtemp(3) (available on OpenBSD
> if nowhere else) that makes a temporary directory. If the directory it
> tries already exists, it will try again, until it either succeeds, or
> decides to give up.
>
> There's a wrapper program, mktemp(1). You can invoke it from shell
> scripts with the -d option. Whether this is available outside of
> OpenBSD, I don't know.

I find mktemp(1) on my RH 7.1 system. The man.page gives credit to
OpenBSD as the originator. But when I try to run it from the command
line I get:

[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXX
Cannot create temp file /tmp/foo.XXXX

A small amount of investigation with strace(1) gives me this output
as a possible clue:

open("/etc/ld.so.preload", O_RDONLY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)

I don't find anything with "preload" in its name on either of the
two RedHat Installation CDs. Even after the exercise of building
a list of all files that would be installed by any .rpm file on the
disc. But now I have a reference list to save.

$ for i in *.rpm; do echo -e '\n' $i; rpm -qlp $i; done > /tmp/list


carl
maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 16:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Have you taking classes from him, and if so did you
pass. When I took his 4 cource Unix class 90 started
12 pass the 4th class.

and yes I was one of those 12.
maveric
--- Mark Wagnon <***@home.com> wrote:
> On 06/26/01 10:43:51 -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
>
> > great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if
> I
> > ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
> > kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want
> anaything
> > but vi it does everything....
>
>
> That sounds like Greg. That guy's a riot. BTW, I use
> vim too ;-)
>
> --
> Mark Wagnon <***@home.com>
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address
> shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
>
>


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Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:44 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:11:14 -0700
> From: ***@proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: JHRIV's command line
>
> > Date: 27 Jun 2001 18:09:43 +1200
> > From: "Chris K. Young" <***@pobox.com>
> > To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> > Subject: Re: JHRIV's command line
> > In-Reply-To: <***@ucsd.edu>
> >
> > There's a wrapper program, mktemp(1). You can invoke it from shell
> > scripts with the -d option. Whether this is available outside of
> > OpenBSD, I don't know.
>
> I find mktemp(1) on my RH 7.1 system. The man.page gives credit to
> OpenBSD as the originator. But when I try to run it from the command
> line I get:
>
> [***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXX
> Cannot create temp file /tmp/foo.XXXX
>
> A small amount of investigation with strace(1) gives me this output
> as a possible clue:
>
> open("/etc/ld.so.preload", O_RDONLY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)

False alarm. /etc/ld.so.preload seems to be ignored if not needed or
not present..

Real problem, detected only after compiling my private copy of mktemp
from the sources, and running it under the gdb debugger:

The file name template needs to have 6 or more Xs.

Perfectly obvious now from reading the man page, apparently invisible
to me before. Rats. Another perfectly good afternoon spent running
in circles. I suppose the error message could have been better.

[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXXXX
/tmp/foo.d5eFsl

[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXXXXX
/tmp/foo.X1MfaLI


carl
George Georgalis
2005-01-19 16:51:44 UTC
Permalink
>
>Real problem, detected only after compiling my private copy of mktemp
>from the sources, and running it under the gdb debugger:
>
> The file name template needs to have 6 or more Xs.
>
>Perfectly obvious now from reading the man page, apparently invisible
>to me before. Rats. Another perfectly good afternoon spent running
>in circles. I suppose the error message could have been better.
>
>[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXXXX
>/tmp/foo.d5eFsl
>
>[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp /tmp/foo.XXXXXXX
>/tmp/foo.X1MfaLI
>


Yeah, I seem to remember the man page does _hint_ at using at least 6
Xs... But I've sure wasted hours with that one.

// George


--
GEORGE GEORGALIS ><> http://www.galis.org/george
PO Box 3342 <>< <>< email: ***@galis.org
La Jolla, CA 92038 ><> ><> cell: 858-829-4004
John H. Robinson, IV
2005-01-19 16:51:45 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:45:47PM -0700, George Georgalis wrote:
>
> Yeah, I seem to remember the man page does _hint_ at using at least 6
> Xs... But I've sure wasted hours with that one.

liberated from the mktemp(1) man page:

DESCRIPTION
The mktemp utility takes the given file name template and overwrites a
portion of it to create a file name. This file name is unique and suit?
able for use by the application. The template is any file name with six
`Xs' appended to it, for example /tmp/temp.XXXXXX. The `Xs' are replaced
with the current process number and/or a unique letter combination.
Roughly 26 ** 6 combinations are tried.


note where it says ``The template is any file name with six `Xs' appended to it,''

-john
Chris K. Young
2005-01-19 16:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Quoted from jaqque, the super Debian jock [29 Jun 2001]:
> note where it says ``The template is any file name with six `Xs' appended to it,''

BSD mkstemp(3) (and hence mktemp(1)) implementations do not have this
limitation. You can have as many Xs you want, or as little for that
matter. I guess GNU/Linux uses the System V variety or something.

$ mktemp fooX
foo0
$ mktemp fooXX
foo43
$ mktemp fooXXX
foo857
$ mktemp fooXXXXXX
fooe20098
$ mktemp fooXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
foodgDAUDPgwiDrQnXlDEyBZUPuPtIj1008

Besides, if I remember correctly, GNU/Linux doesn't have mkdtemp(3),
and so mktemp(1) doesn't have a -d option. Or something like that.

---Chris K.
--
Chris, the Young One |_ [The] detailed technical explanation for this
Auckland, New Zealand |_ is that the BIND company is a bunch of idiots.
GnuPG: AF686BD0E607D9AB |_ ---D. J. Bernstein
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 16:51:48 UTC
Permalink
> Date: 30 Jun 2001 03:35:14 +1200
> From: "Chris K. Young" <***@pobox.com>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: JHRIV's command line
> In-Reply-To: <***@ucsd.edu>
>
> Quoted from jaqque, the super Debian jock [29 Jun 2001]:
> > note where it says ``The template is any file name with six `Xs' appended to it,''
>
> BSD mkstemp(3) (and hence mktemp(1)) implementations do not have this
> limitation. You can have as many Xs you want, or as little for that
> matter. I guess GNU/Linux uses the System V variety or something.
>
> $ mktemp fooX
> foo0
> $ mktemp fooXX
> foo43
> $ mktemp fooXXX
> foo857
> $ mktemp fooXXXXXX
> fooe20098
> $ mktemp fooXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> foodgDAUDPgwiDrQnXlDEyBZUPuPtIj1008
>
> Besides, if I remember correctly, GNU/Linux doesn't have mkdtemp(3),
> and so mktemp(1) doesn't have a -d option. Or something like that.

The one I have my hands on today (RedHat 7.1) has the -d option to
mktemp(1). On the other hand, it uses only 6 of the XXs for the
random name, no matter how many you supply.

[***@swordfish cdl]$ mktemp -d /tmp/fooXXXXXXXX
/tmp/fooXXJyVOLe

carl
John Wenger
2005-01-19 18:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Ron,

Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.

The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
nature.

Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
necessary. Now you know.

Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
context.

Thanks for your cooperation.

John

Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
>
> Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live up
> in Oceanside.
Richard W. Ernst
2005-01-19 18:14:58 UTC
Permalink
I'll disagree, but will be interested in other's opinions.

While we do have a newbie list, it was my understanding it was for the
newbie benefit, meaning less off topic stuff, less flames for etiquette
violations, and a lot lower traffic, not to remove all newbie questions
from the "main" list.

Hopefully the group will correct me if this is a misinterpretation.

I will agree about trimming emails to relevant stuff.

Rich

John Wenger wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.
>
> The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
> at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
> help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
> contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
> nature.
>
> Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
> abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
> first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
> necessary. Now you know.
>
> Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
> context.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
> John
>
> Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
> >
> > Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live up
> > in Oceanside.
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.

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Anthony M. Abate
2005-01-19 18:14:59 UTC
Permalink
John,
While you have valid points in this post, the tone of the message is
completely wrong. This list is here to help people learn, solve issues and
discuss Linux. The newbie list was created to help lighten the load this
list was receiving by neophytes. I don't recall it ever being mentioned or
"understood" that newbies were no longer welcome here. Many people don't
know all the resources available on the net or how to find them. Wouldn't it
have been easier just to say " Here are a few good resources for you to
investigate" ........ Instead of the rude comment you did make.

Remember one thing, Linux will continue to grow only if newbies are
successful using it. Broadening the user base is the only way to ensure the
public falls out of the M$ trance.

I'll add a personal comment to this. I promote this list to people all the
time. I view everyone here as a valuable resource who have helped me many
times. I am dismayed because the last 10 people I pointed here left because
of what they called the "Elitists Attitude" exhibited by some list members.
This is a really bad thing, as my daughter would say ...... and she would be
right.

On Saturday 23 June 2001 02:06 pm, you wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Please stop abusing this mailing list with newbie questions.
>
> The answers to most of your questions are available on the net, either
> at the KPLUG web site or by searching with Google. Stop being lazy;
> help yourself first before asking for help. Your "Hi All" thread
> contains at least 39 items, almost all of which are of a newbie
> nature.
>
> Use the newbie list for newbie questions. Anything else is list
> abuse. The seemingly as-yet-unwritten guideline is to ask for help
> first on the newbie list, and then escalate the the main list if
> necessary. Now you know.
>
> Also, please trim your posts to content essential to provide necessary
> context.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
> John
>
> Ron Hollingsworth wrote:
> > Is there anything in North County. That is a bit too far for me. I live
> > up in Oceanside.
maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Wow I need to read this more often there are some very
upset people out there, I hope that no one leave to
anywere ells. I have been around this people since
realy early on and I know how good everyone can be. I
think this is just a misunderstanding and we should
all just begin again. Ron you can email me directly
if you want I will try to help you or will find out
the answare for you.

maveric...



> Why not do this:
> Answer the question like civilized adults and people
> who care and want to
> spread the camaraderie
> and good faith that I know exists in the Linux
> community and then suggest
> that they may be
> better able to find help on the newbie list which
> has many topics that are
> no doubt much more
> relevant to someone who is just learning and is also
> better equipped to
> handle your request,
> oh and by the way you can subscribe to the newbie
> list by going to etc..
> etc. etc..
>
> What happened to that kind of support?
>
> Watching this from the viewpoint of someone who was
> a newbie once not that
> long ago... come
> on guys... you never acted this way to me... and if
> you had I would have
> gone somewhere else.
> The greatest thing about the Linux community to me
> is the same thing that
> makes it great for
> me to hang out at airports We all have the same
> interest. We're a
> community and a family,
> you can't say that about windows users.
>
> Okay so he's asking a lot of newbie questions,
> that's GREAT! Isn't it?
>
> If it's not maybe I should go somewhere else... And
> maybe he should.
>
>
>
> -Warn
> ***@email.sjsu.edu
> One hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is.
>
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address
> shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
>
>


=====
Maveric Maveriq
AKA First Jedi Master
Great Great Great Great
Great Grandfather to Luke
UNIX Systems Administrator
Analog Devices
***@yahoo.com

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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Ron I just when back trough the your e-mails and this
is something we never do in this list. I have to
agree I have never ever in 4 or 5 years seen this in
this list.

maveric


but his is the first
> time I remember seeing,
> "SHUT THE @#$ UP" on this list.

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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
I have to agree with John 100% I don't use emac I
don't use pico I don't use anything ells but vi or
vim. My unix instructor at South Wester College the
great Darth Vather aka Greg Mohler said Ernesto if I
ever cath you using anything that is not vi I will
kick y@# A$$ and anyway who would ever want anaything
but vi it does everything....


My 2 cents


maveric
--- "John H. Robinson, IV" <***@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:43:17AM -0700, Warn
> Kitchen wrote:
> >
> > I will now start a religious war:
> >
> > I like pico.
>
> i like pico too. it is a great example of what can
> possibly go wrong
> with an editor.
>
> there is only One True Editor: vi. and the best of
> the vi's is vim.
> (it is iMproved, you know)
>
> -john
>
> note: djb has not written an editor yet. andy why
> not? vi has already
> been written!!
>
> --
> http://www.kernel-panic.org
> list archives http://www.ultraviolet.org
> To unsubscribe, send a message to the address
> shown in the list-unsubscribe
> header of this message.
>
>


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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.


Me no like that......

maveric

> emacs use contributes to the power shortage.
>
> --
> Lan Barnes ***@san.rr.com
> Icon Consulting, Inc 858-273-6677
>
> Good UNIX, set -x
> - Greg Mohler
>


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maveric maveriq
2005-01-19 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
I don't know if you can do that but I think I would
use linx in a shell so that I can highlight it and
center click on the other shell with vi in (i) mode.

> Another Q) I keep sort of asking is having vi come
> shamelessly into a
> software app such as lynx. The answer I mostly get
> is "learn how to use
> shell escapes" (my interpretation). I would like
> though to be able to
> say when in lynx tap a few keys and have vi take
> over what ever text is
> on the monitor and in ram.
>


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Wade Curry
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
I didn't actually understand this command line fully.

John H. Robinson, IV(***@ucsd.edu)@Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:44:03AM -0700:
> let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
> something like:
>
> mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
^^ ^^
current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
who didn't recognize it at 1st
glance. man bash

I'm assuming bash here, but when I do this: mkdir %% ,I get a
directory that is named "%%". It looks like we're missing a
semicolon right before or after the "%%". In any case, I don't
understand what its roll is.

I understood everything else from the "chown" to the end.
>
> of course, this seems a bit evil and nasty, and probably a little
> overkill.

Well... Yeah! Please show us the hard way! :D

More for those who are new to vi(m).:
Sending the output of ls to vi is a really nifty *fast* way to
start a script that will do something to all the files in the
listing. The *easy* way to do it would be to run vim,
then enter command mode (type a colon) so you can enter this at the
bottom-
:r! ls

This puts the current directory listing into the editor.

Of course, you can use any of ls' gigajillion options, or a
different command altogether.



Wade Curry wcurryATcts.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do I have to compile it? Looking for a position
No, I *get* to compile it. working with *nix as a
It's about freedom. Sys. Admin. or other.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Schneider
2005-01-19 18:15:10 UTC
Permalink
I have an APC SmartUPS 1400 here, running apcupsd, as well as several
clients doing the same. It works pretty well, and in the case of a power
failure, do an orderly shutdown of the servers. How is that Linux
unfriendly?

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Serge Rey wrote:

SR>that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
SR>linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
SR>obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
SR>ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
SR>while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.
SR>
SR>i can't find a local retail dealer that carries anything close to medium level
SR>BEST products.
SR>
SR>anyone have first hand experience with a good UPS they'd recommend (or
SR>recommend avoiding?).
SR>
SR>
SR>thanks,
SR>serge
SR>
SR>

--
Neil Schneider ***@linuxgeek.net
Ballmer's bleatings for Bill's billions is just the whine of a dying pig.
Bob La Quey
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:30:08 +0000
> From: Serge Rey <***@typhoon.sdsu.edu>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
> In-Reply-To: <***@web14301.mail.yahoo.com>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:12:34AM -0700, maveric maveriq wrote:
> > Talking about shortage they shut the lights yesterday
> > in Chula vista and my linux server whent down.
> >
>
> that reminds me, i've been thinking of picking up a ups for a single
> linux box and have scoured the usual howtos, google, slashdot and
> obtained a wealth of information. consensus view seems to be that BEST
> ups' are the way to go due to their more open approach to protocols,
> while APC is ubiquitous but not as linux friendly.

1. My brother, who is in the power conditioning business, has nothing
but bad to say abouat Best UPS's. Apparently they put lots of garbage
on the line.

2. Software for handling APC and perhaps other UPS's can be found
under the name "apcupsd". That's d as in Daemon. Try Google or equivalent.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:34:34 -0700
> From: Lan Barnes <***@san.rr.com>
> Organization: Icon Consulting, Inc
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
>
>
> _My_ UPS problem (OK, this is about Serge, but . . . what about _my_ needs
> ;) is that I'm hitting a bit of an inertial wall on making the simple
> feedback serial cable that I need to inform the server that it's suddenly
> on borrowed time. I need to get to some haven of cable parts (ribbon, male
> and female 9-pin serial plugs, etc). Suggestions?

Gateway Electronics, Chesapeake St. is the place I would go for
electronic bits and pieces. Would not use ribbon cable because
the connection from the UPS to the computer is not straight 1:1.

At least it isn't 1:1 for APC units.

I'm sure that if you had a cable wiring diagram there are two or
three places in town that would make you one for a moderate fee.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:49:21 +0000
> From: Serge Rey <***@typhoon.sdsu.edu>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: Re: UPS anyone? [was Re: Mailing List Abuse]
> In-Reply-To: <***@san.rr.com>
>
> i saw all those cool ascii art diagrams on performing these surgical
> operations on the cords in the howtos. very neat looking stuff.
>
> >
> > I have the knowledge, but can't get to the job. That is so _me_!
>
> unlike you, i lack *both* the knowledge and time to get to the splicing
> job and was hoping to find one that worked right out of the box without
> having to order a new cable, or risk slicing off a finger in attempting
> to rig my own serial cable.

I think the most likely risk would be burning your finger on the
wrong end of the soldering iron. :-)

OK, not everyone is an amateur electronics tech or a professional
applied physicist.

carl
Carl Lowenstein
2005-01-19 18:15:11 UTC
Permalink
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:27:07 -0700
> From: Wade Curry <***@cts.com>
> To: kplug-***@kernel-panic.org
> Subject: JHRIV's command line WAS: Mailing List Abuse
> Reply-To: ***@cts.com
> In-Reply-To: <***@ucsd.edu>
>
>
> I didn't actually understand this command line fully.
>
> John H. Robinson, IV(***@ucsd.edu)@Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:44:03AM -0700:
> > let's say you wanted to edit the output of an ls(1) command, youcan do
> > something like:
> >
> > mkdir /tmp/joe %% chmow 0700 /tmp/joe && ls > /tmp/joe/ls && vi /tmp/joe/ls
> ^^ ^^
> current job / chown <-- for newbies, and those (like me)
> who didn't recognize it at 1st
> glance. man bash
>
> I'm assuming bash here, but when I do this: mkdir %% ,I get a
> directory that is named "%%". It looks like we're missing a
> semicolon right before or after the "%%". In any case, I don't
> understand what its roll is.

I don't know what shell jhriv is using, but if he is using anything
related to a Bourne shell, that should be $$ not %%. It produces
an ASCII string equal to the current job number, thus presumably
unique.

carl
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